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Is it possible to have a game without "grind"?

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Old

Aug 23, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

#61

Takkun

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

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Quote:

Posted by Dax:
..but is a grind really a grind if you enjoy it. I mean if you have to kill XX NPC beasties repeatedly, isn't that the same as killing XX of online characters repeatedly in PvP?

Well there is a difference:

Killing XX NPC beasties = same skills, all of them acting the same as the one before

Killing XX online characters = Each battle with each person is unique. I have yet to fight two people the same in my competitions yet. Even if they do have the same skills, they react to what you use different than an NPC would

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Aug 24, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27	#62
Sir Skullcrasher Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California Guild: 15 over 50 [Rare] Profession: W/Mo	In my opinion, all RPG games (whether its MMORPG like World of Warcraft, Gunz, Guild Wars, Diablo I & II or RPG series like Final Fantasy) It will have grind it in since character have to level up to certain level in order to survive in the game. I know its tendious to fight million of monsters to reach from one level to another but that the design for these games.

Old

Aug 24, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

#63

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Takkun

Well there is a difference:

Killing XX NPC beasties = same skills, all of them acting the same as the one before

Killing XX online characters = Each battle with each person is unique. I have yet to fight two people the same in my competitions yet. Even if they do have the same skills, they react to what you use different than an NPC would

I dunno I find PvP in GW very reptitious. Which is the reason I don't like it and I don't play that part of it..... but that's my opinion I respect others for enjoying it. I don't complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

In my opinion, all RPG games (whether its MMORPG like World of Warcraft, Gunz, Guild Wars, Diablo I & II or RPG series like Final Fantasy) It will have grind it in since character have to level up to certain level in order to survive in the game. I know its tendious to fight million of monsters to reach from one level to another but that the design for these games.

But if a person enjoys those games and doesn't think it repetitious, is it still a grind?

Does anyone say they actually enjoy the grind? Evidently the millions of people who play WoW either do or they don't. Everyone should ask instead why is that grind so appealing to so many people in those games and why it isn't in GW.

Last edited by Dax; Aug 24, 2005 at 03:08 AM // 03:08..

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Aug 24, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

#64

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Profession: Mo/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Isn't this opinion and not a fact? If some people enjoy what you think is "grind," then how can it be a fault with the game? It depends on the person. I believe there is no such thing as playing a game the "wrong" way. The game is presented to you so that you can play it however you want. Unless the developer specifically states that you can not play that way and takes action (e.g., botting).

It's your assumption that I am stating my opinions as fact, I am not. I am expressing what I believe is right and can't be bothered to preface every statement with the wishy-washy "In my opinion".

I only called it playing the game "wrong" because often times in threads like these there are people who feel the need to say that you don't -need- to do or get such and such. If you don't need to do that, then it doesn't need to be so troublesome and convoluted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Again, we come down to a difference in opinion. I have played mostly PvE and also dabbled in PvP (not much, about 6000 faction solely in 4v4 arena), all with one character. I have found no need to run through the game. I have found the number of skill points acquired through casual normal play to be adequate. It's not grind TO ME.

Funny how that happens.

Just because you and others are satisfied with playing with a limited pool of skills does not mean the PvP unlocks are balanced. You would lose absolutely nothing if the process was made quicker while Guild Wars on a whole would gain plenty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Diablo II/LOD is one of my favorite games ever. Many people STILL play it regularly. I have gone to the same towns, done the same missions, and killed the same monsters to obtain skills. Is that grind? Depends on the person playing. Anyway, once you have unlocked all or almost all of the skills you need, then that's it. You don't ever have to unlock them again. Not true of games like Diablo II. You have to "grind" to get the skills you want every time.

Diablo II has balanced incentives such as character development and gear with grind. While I admire the unlock system, I still think it needs to be sped up. Not for the individual, but for the enviroment. PvP is far more important in Guild Wars than in Diablo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

So 560 hours wasting your time? You were grinding the whole time, essentially doing something you hate, the whole time? And if you have unlocked so many of the skills already, then why are you complaining about the time it takes to unlock skills? You now have them all for use at any time, whereas I who has spent roughly the same amount of time playing the game as you have has unlocked maybe 20% of all skills. You have worked, or "grinded," for your skills... now you have them, and in far less time than it will take me to unlock everything. The preceding questions aren't meant to incite you; I'm truly curious about your opinion. About unlocking the garbage skills... see below.

I never said I wasted 560 or that I didn't enjoy doing it, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I've already explained why I'm complaining but I suppose I'll repeat myself. I am concerned about the enviroment, not myself. All the skills in the world don't matter if my friends and Guildmates no longer play due to skillpoint burn out.

It especially doesn't matter if the PvP enviroment diminishes to the point that there is nothing but a handful of scrubs and powergamers left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

I think playing abnormally would be to take those garbage skills that most people probably don't use and make builds with them. Playing abnormally can also be defined as playing and not caring about whether you win or lose, or maybe not caring about how long it takes you to win. My opinion is that you are playing normally as a power player (isn't that kind of paradoxical?) who wants more for less. I don't know you, but that's just how you come across to me as. But anyway, if you consider the grind in GW to be a game fault, then you could also say that playing the game despite its faults is playing abnormally. Which you kinda dig. (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, so please don't take it that way.)

I said garbage skills because mostly they are skills I am so wary against that I don't especially feel like spending an hour grinding for XP and then another hour trying to capture it from a Boss.

Let's get something straight, I do play the game despite it's fault. I really like Guild Wars, I have been following it since last October, not as long as some, but I have invested far more time than I care to mention in Guild Wars even before release. I see something in it that is flawed, so you'll have to forgive me for being outspoken because I want it fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

This matters to you how? Even if it becomes a niche market game, if you continue to play it, then it will have served its purpose. Same for anyone else.

It's tough enough to make groups as it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

If you became bored with it, IMHO that's your fault and not the game's. There are many possible permutations of primary/secondary/attribute/skill setups. Again, it is my opinion that playing abnormally would be to try every single permutation possible. If you are not satisfied with that, then again it is not the game's fault but your own opinion. It seems that the only way to please you would be to have either a limitless number or an ever-increasing number of different professions and skills, the former of which is impossible and the latter possible but probably not at the speed which would not bore you.

I'm not bored with the game, I just wish that my friends weren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Play abnormally to have a decent selection of skills? Again that is solely your opinion, not a fact as you claim. I play what I consider normally, and even though I have 100% of the necro skills and about 10% of the rest, I find that it is enough for me. With the few skills I have unlocked, I have been able to satisfactorily create new builds and have fun with them. But that's just me. Again, however, I agree with the opnion that experimentation is somewhat limited by the use of attribute refunds. To truly change your build repeatedly, you have to continuously use and acquire attribute points.

What's good enough for you isn't what's good enough for everyone. That's soley your opinion, and again, I not claiming what I am saying is fact. The closest I came to that is perhaps incorrectly using the expression "The fact remains".

I just think builds and skills shouldn't be stiffled by the current rate of unlocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

I agree that you can't view Guild Wars as a traditional MMORPG. And yes, it's a team-based game. Yes, you need flexibility, but not to get the most of the game. The definition of "getting the most of the game" depends on the person defining it. And if people are going inactive because their guilds are going inactive, well... I fail to understand how that is the game's fault. There seem to be plenty of people who enjoy the game as it is and are still actively playing in active guilds. Besides, isn't it inevitable that guilds will come and go?

Because the skill unlock system isn't doing anything but causing people to quit? I still fail to see any worth in the current rate of unlocks, PvE players don't care about it (they're going to farm monsters anyways) and it does nothing but cause the PvP environment to stagnate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Opinion again. I personally see nothing wrong with the unlock system; I may not have every skill there is, and it may not be a broad selection, but it's not detrimental to me. If I want a broad selection of skills, I'll get them. And have fun while doing so. Fun to me, anyway.

Again, I don't have a problem with the unlock system, just how it's implimented. Skills are burried far too deeply into the game and skill points dry up too quickly. If it's fun to you, well, that's your opinion, not fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

I'm not 100% clear on what you mean here, but I'm going to try to guess at your meaning. I guess what you're trying to say is that the true fault with the game is that it tried to be a hybrid of the two and not a black-and-white one or the other. But if your opinion mentioned previously is true (re: hybrid games & niche market), then this game will become that niche game as long as it remains a hybrid.

What I was driving at is Guild Wars is driving so hard at two things, but in a way that they interact with each other in the worst ways. Guild Wars is going to disappoint any who wants either PvP or PvE in excess, and it's hard to find someone who wants to mix the two since a hardcore grinder is going to want his efforts to give him an advantage over other players.

Which sucks, because that's exactly the direction Guild Wars should NOT be going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

I never played the beta, so I have no way of comparing. But there's no point in complaining about how dissimilar it is from the beta or from interviews made (I assume) prior to retail release. The game you have now is the game you have. The developers MAY change it for one reason or another, but the fact remains that what you get is what you have. You have the choice to continue playing or move on to bigger and better things.

Many people bought the game because of the Beta, if Guild Wars was more like the Developers said it would be, things would be different and perhaps better. I think the PvP is strong enough to stand on it's own without the skill grind, mostly because as an artificial replay value mechanic, it doesn't really serve any purpose but to cling to traditions. Guild Wars was supposed to be revolutionary, but all it ended up doing was being a really good game that did things a little differently.

I guess it could have been worse and the game could have completely bombed, but all in all, there is still a potential for Guild Wars that has yet to be unlocked. (heh!)

Oh, I didn't play in the beta weekend that has UAS, should anyone ask or assume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Whether or not there is too much, too little, or if it even exists at all, grind depends on the person who is playing the game. Saying that the game is flawed is opinion, not fact.

Yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

Too many people express opinion and try to portray them as facts; in their own minds, it is fact. In reality, it is a fact that it is an opinion. And that is not an opinion.

Too many people read opinions and assume they're facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

People will always find something to complain about, and there will always be people to defend it, and there will always be people who don't really care either way and just play the darn game.

Well, oddly enough I was defending what this thread was complaining about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlarisux

It seems to me that many of the people who are complaining can be described as power players. It also seems that you want more for less, faster, faster, faster. I'm sure that there are power players who aren't complaining. Just an observation/opinion. Feel free to rebut me.

No, I just want peers who don't have to be power players like I was.

Last edited by Sanji; Aug 24, 2005 at 05:01 AM // 05:01..

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Old

Aug 24, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

#65

xlarisux

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

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Great reply all in all. I think I understand your position much better now, although there are a few points in your reply that I'd like to discuss. Since I'm at home now, I don't really feel like writing too much. If I didn't quote you on something, then it's because I either agree with you or understand where you're coming from and basically have nothing to say in response. Or I'm just too lazy to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

It's your assumption that I am stating my opinions as fact, I am not. I am expressing what I believe is right and can't be bothered to preface every statement with the wishy-washy "In my opinion".

I think you're right, I misinterpreted your statement when you said: "Bull, grind is every bit the fault with the game." My apologies, it sounded like you were trying to pass it off as a fact that grind is a fault in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Just because you and others are satisfied with playing with a limited pool of skills does not mean the PvP unlocks are balanced. You would lose absolutely nothing if the process was made quicker while Guild Wars on a whole would gain plenty.

But because you and others are not satisfied with the rate of PvP unlocks, does that mean it's unbalanced? Who determines what is balanced? I agree though that I and anyone else who PvPs loses nothing by quicker unlocks. However, the way I see it, you've unlocked almost every skill in less total time than I have played, and now you have those skills forever. Whatever your method was, PvE or PvP unlocking, it was far more efficient than what I'm doing. It could be said that I'm grinding while you are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I never said I wasted 560 or that I didn't enjoy doing it, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

It was implied by your dissatisfaction with the unlocking of all of your skills. You spent ~560 hours or part of that time "grinding" to get all of those skills and you dislike grind, so I assumed that you disliked that time. If my assumption was wrong then my apologies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I've already explained why I'm complaining but I suppose I'll repeat myself. I am concerned about the enviroment, not myself. All the skills in the world don't matter if my friends and Guildmates no longer play due to skillpoint burn out.

I can understand being concerned with the environment, but what I'm confused by is why you and others got burned out in the first place. Only your desire to have everything more quickly caused you to burn out. It wasn't the game that burned you out, you played the game in a manner that burned you out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I said garbage skills because mostly they are skills I am so wary against that I don't especially feel like spending an hour grinding for XP and then another hour trying to capture it from a Boss.

I can understand that some skills appear useless, I'm guilty of that feeling myself. I think the true challenge here is to simply get that skill and use it in a way that makes it meaningful. I agree that capturing some skills may take some time, but that doesn't necessarily make it grind. You've got a clear reward for your time, and you don't have to do it again unless you want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

It's tough enough to make groups as it is now.

Henchies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I'm not bored with the game, I just wish that my friends weren't.

People will get bored of games and move on, there's really not a whole lot you can do about that. As long as you continue to enjoy the game, that should really be good enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

If it's fun to you, well, that's your opinion, not fact.

Aahh, but if it's fun to me, that doesn't make it my opinion or anyone else's. It's a fact that it's fun to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Guild Wars was supposed to be revolutionary, but all it ended up doing was being a really good game that did things a little differently.

I had to quote this because I strongly believe you are correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Too many people read opinions and assume they're facts.

Guilty as charged. I do try to avoid that, however. It would be a better world if more people did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

No, I just want peers who don't have to be power players like I was.

Ah, but they don't HAVE to be power players like you were! That's a conscious decision that you made and a choice that every player is faced with. Some may follow your footsteps and not consider it to be grind at all, while others may feel as you do.

In the end, the question about grind - how much of it exists or whether it exists at all - is not something that can be effectively argued because it is completely subjective.

Just play the darn game!

P.S.
Thanks for the non-flaming, calm, intelligent reply. I feared the worst. I probably won't post in this thread or this forum again, but I'll be looking forward to your response.

P.P.S.
I included too many smilies in my post? WTF? =P

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Aug 24, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33	#66
Kishin Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Guild: The Twilight Vanguard [TTV] Profession: R/	I swear, there's a resonance frequency in the word "grind" that calls every "OMGWTF You whiners want it all just play the game you don't need to unlock skills to be competitive I know so much about PvP my guild is ranked 5479 and whats the Hall of Heroes' poster out and forces them to share their infinite wisdom with the world.

Aug 24, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42	#67
Saerden Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: May 2005	The second post of this thread should have been: " Can you have a game without grind? Yes, chess. QED " Rest is just fluff. Can you have a RPG without grind? Yes. Every RPG that does not involve other players is very unlikely to have grind. It still can have boring or repetitive parts, but only because you can powerlevel in FF does not mean that you have to. You need to understand the fact why you dont need max level in BG II, but you need max level, skill, equipment in GW pvp. if you dont understand this, i cant argue further, since i dont have any clue whatsoever about teaching difficult cases.

Aug 24, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59	#68
Sanji Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Profession: Mo/	I think it's misguided to assume that suggestions to shorten the amount of time to obtain skills is a cry to make the game easier or to be given anything on a silver platter. I am making claims that the current unlock system is unbalanced because I feel very strongly that it only serves to degrade the game environment, when it could instead enrich it. I say it's unbalanced and flawed because players have the capacity to go at it too quickly or go so deeply into it that Guild Wars is no longer rewarding, that should not be the case. I think Guild Wars is strong enough of a game on it's own that it doesn't need to rely so heavily on the artificial replay value grind crutch. Because that's what it is, a crutch. Nevermind how other games handled character progression, Guild Wars needed PvP characters and skill unlocks. Forgive me for being audacious in being of the opinion that it isn't enough, but I feel for the true potential for Guild Wars to be discovered, PvP players need to be able to unlock the content they need in a more suitable and expedient fashion. I don't know what can be done to keep the MMO Players or the Hack n' Slashers around longer, but it won't be skill grind. On the other hand, Skill grind is exactly what is chasing away PvP players, that's why I have a problem with it and why I spent so much time rambling on in this thread. Last edited by Sanji; Aug 24, 2005 at 02:46 PM // 14:46..

Old

Aug 24, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

#69

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I think it's misguided to assume that suggestions to shorten the amount of time to obtain skills is a cry to make the game easier or to be given anything on a silver platter. I am making claims that the current unlock system is unbalanced because I feel very strongly that it only serves to degrade the game environment, when it could instead enrich it. I say it's unbalanced and flawed because players have the capacity to go at it too quickly or go so deeply into it that Guild Wars is no longer rewarding, that should not be the case. I think Guild Wars is strong enough of a game on it's own that it doesn't need to rely so heavily on the artificial replay value grind crutch. Because that's what it is, a crutch.

I think many of the opponents to the idea of removing the treadmill involved within unlocks, is that they feel it is a cry out for needing something easier. The problem is there is a difference between easy and time consuming. Xenosaga is an easy game, but it is very time consuming due to the excessive amounts of segmented cut scenes and plot advancing conversations. It also has a bad layout for the secondary missions that require the player to go back and forth constantly through content already explored. Mechanics like this are designed to extend gameplay, but do not add to the replay value of said content. There is also a difference between playing through the content and replaying the same content over and over again. I believe this is another point many people miss when trying to associate the "grind" as a common factor between games.

The style for the unlock system is decent for the pve environment and it allows the devs to tailor the content against what the players could bring to the table and add challenge to the game. Unfortunatly there are not many instances within the game where you need skill x in order to advance through environment sequence y. It is even fine for a pve environment that includes pvp, as many of the same options that are found for pve challenge exist within the pvp dynamics between players. This game captures this the best in the pre-searing arena fight, but lacks depth for a involved experience. What would make the game stand out if more of that style of gameplay existed within the game, however it would require more controlls on the pve than what exist currently. In a pvp exclusive environment, the unlock system is counter intuitive as there are no restrictions other than victory conditions. This requires the players to have all (if not all, all useful) skill options, in order to be able to react properly with build designs over time.

To say the unlock system that creates the "grind" in guild wars is a bad mechanic is not accurate. However, it is a bad mechanic for a pvp exclusive environment that the end game represents and goes against the principle of player skill having more weight than character attributes, which is what many people quote as a founding idea within guild wars from an early interview with one of the developers of the game. I do agree that it is an introduced idea that forces replay, opposed to the player choosing to replay.

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Aug 24, 2005, 02:39 PM // 14:39

#70

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Nevermind how other games handled character progression, Guild Wars needed PvP characters and skill unlocks. Forgive me for being audacious in being of the opinion that it isn't enough, but I feel for the true potential for Guild Wars to be discovered, PvP players need to be able to unlock the content they need in a more suitable and expedient fashion. I don't know what can be done to keep the MMO Players or the Hack n' Slashers around longer, but it won't be skill grind. On the other hand, Skill grind is exactly what is chasing away PvP players, that's why I have a problem with it and why I spent so much time rambling on in this thread.

Then they should have made a portion of the game completely PvP. They certainly didn't balance the RPG/PvP aspect of it at all. As a person on the other end of the spectrum the game has limited gameplay and wonder why people want to have everything all at once.

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Aug 24, 2005, 02:58 PM // 14:58	#71
Saerden Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: May 2005	Maybe its because i never got into console / "asian" style RPGs that i consider GW PvE to be un-rpgsih. Sorry, but running around killing bosses, and "capturing" "elite skills" is cheap. Turning a warrior type who totally mastered swords and tactics (16/10/x) into a axe-wielding mage who can unleash firestorms and meteor rains (that are not much worse then the meteor storms the best elemtal mages could ever hope to evoke! 16/12/x) on his enemies within 30s after talking to some ghost in some desert is not my idea of "character building". The "you unlocked stuff for pvp" message does not help immersion either. Thats why i consider skill unlock to be the worst grind ever designed (outside of p2p games - those are so bad that you get payed for playing them or something equally stupid). You need everything to be competitive, you can get everything to be competitive in 300-4000h depending on access to friends runners and tolerance of pve, and neither is the process of getting everything fun, nor immersive. It screams "hey im a cheap GAME mechanic that has absolutely nothing to do with the world, the story, your character or whatever, im just here because online games with swords and spells need delayed tool aquisition because um just because".

Aug 24, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11	#72
SOT Banned Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas	I love how people keep arguing with such vigor and passion, about a game thew CONSISTENTLY refer to in the past tense. It's like trying to upset an unwelcome relative at a family gathering by talking about them as if they are not in the room, 3 feet fromt them. WTF? LMAO

Old

Aug 24, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

#73

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Profession: Mo/

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Then they should have made a portion of the game completely PvP. They certainly didn't balance the RPG/PvP aspect of it at all.

I agree and disagree. The way they made PvP and PvE interact with each other was a mistake that they have sought to fix with faction. PvE is still a much better way to get unlocks and that needs to change.

PvE has suffered a lot for the sake of PvP as well through the level cap and standardized equipment.

However, I don't see them splitting the game in half and making an UAS PvP Server or the "Free MMO/Diablo 3" server where you can get to level 80 and get a Epic +5 Golden Slaying Sword of the Monkey or any of that nonsense. Guild Wars was made a hybrid and Anet has a tough job making both parts not only work but work together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

As a person on the other end of the spectrum the game has limited gameplay and wonder why people want to have everything all at once.

PvE may very well have limited gameplay, but PvP has unlimited*.

*Some assembly required

Last edited by Sanji; Aug 24, 2005 at 03:18 PM // 15:18..

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Aug 24, 2005, 03:22 PM // 15:22

#74

SOT

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

Location: East Texas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

PvE may very well have limited gameplay, but PvP has unlimited*.

*Some assembly required

Clever as you usually are, you missed the mark here. PVP has no unlimited gameplay, by virtue of the fact of the kinds of people you encounter. The PVP may be really long-living to the ultimate unlocker, or the ebayed badass, or the person who actually played PVE and maxed all their stats, etc, but in the end, it comes down to the types of people you face in pvp. The quality of that group is unfortunately, not a constant bright beam of awesomeness*.

*See also, idiots in large groups attempting to be authoritative on something of only minimal meaning in the big scheme of things

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Aug 24, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

#75

Louis Ste Colombe

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Join Date: May 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

The second post of this thread should have been:
"
Can you have a game without grind?

Yes, chess. QED
"

Chess is an interesting example. Sure, you have access to everything right away; no need to unlock bishops or whatever.

In GW, there is a confusion... There is the unlocking feature, and people claiming that it betrays "skill against time played", since the most time you've spent unlocking, the "better" you are.

There is a big difference between "skill against time played" and "(absence of) grind"

Time played is a reward of its own. The more you play chess the better you are at it. There is no way in hell someone who plays 1 hour a month can beat someone who plays 5 hours a week... or 10 a day.

You can have a grindless game, and still, it will reward time spent over skill, and it will be tough for casual gamers in competition.

What really matters is: do you have fun while playing?

Louis,

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Old

Aug 24, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

#76

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

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some points the pvp hard core ignore

1 this was never advertised or intended to be a grind free game

Quote:

Guild Wars is a global online roleplaying game. Players can engage in cooperative group combat, in single player adventures, or in large head-to-head guild battles. Guild Wars is a mission-based game set in a stunning 3D fantasy world

2

Quote:

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience.

3

Quote:

As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat.

the grind is there on purpose and not by accident or a *mistake* as the hard core pvp minority assert

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Aug 24, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59	#77
Sanji Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Profession: Mo/	Are you just randomly posting that, Loviatar? Nobody is even really talking about UAS. That's a cute collection of press quotes, though. Want me to dig up some that ended up not applying to Guild Wars?

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Aug 24, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

#78

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Are you just randomly posting that, Loviatar? Nobody is even really talking about UAS.

That's a cute collection of press quotes, though. Want me to dig up some that ended up not applying to Guild Wars?

i thought the references to ROLEPLAYING and PROGRESSION would apply in the so called grind catagory.

it was not ransomly posted and UAS was not mentioned by me

no offense meant simply showing that from the start they intended it as RPG as well as pvp and not pvp with a last second addition of the RP aspect

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Aug 24, 2005, 04:15 PM // 16:15

#79

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I agree and disagree. The way they made PvP and PvE interact with each other was a mistake that they have sought to fix with faction. PvE is still a much better way to get unlocks and that needs to change.

PvE has suffered a lot for the sake of PvP as well through the level cap and standardized equipment.

However, I don't see them splitting the game in half and making an UAS PvP Server or the "Free MMO/Diablo 3" server where you can get to level 80 and get a Epic +5 Golden Slaying Sword of the Monkey or any of that nonsense. Guild Wars was made a hybrid and Anet has a tough job making both parts not only work but work together.

PvE may very well have limited gameplay, but PvP has unlimited*.

*Some assembly required

I think the PvP from a integration point of view is limited in the fact that one feel's that you can't have a good experience unless you have all the unlocks. This may or may not be true in reality but that is the impression you get from players especially in this forum. I think the human nature of people has to be taken into effect when designing a game.

There are games that have winning combinations with PvP and PvE that you can have an enjoyable experience and not have to rush to get uber gear within a month.

Last edited by Dax; Aug 24, 2005 at 04:20 PM // 16:20..

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Aug 24, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18	#80
Elistan Theocrat Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Aug 2005	of course its possible to have a game without grind. here are some examples. http://www.scorch2000.com/ http://www.onemorelevel.com/games/avoider.html http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/...ects/spacewar/ http://www.turbotanks.com/ none of these games have any grind. Notice, none of them have any kind of advancement or character development in it. I don't personally view complaints about grind in GW as valid in the slightest. for several reasons. Mostly because grind is subjective to opinion depending on what type of game the individual enjoys, all stereotypes aside.

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